From: Clifford E. Cummings (email@example.com)
Date: Thu May 09 2002 - 10:54:44 PDT
Sorry, Paul -
While checking out the Verilog-2001 BNF, we converted all keywords and
tokens to red bold. This made it much easier to tell which square brackets
and parentheses were part of the syntax and which were indications of
optional BNF productions. The red bold greatly enhanced our understanding
of the BNF.
The hyperlinks made it very easy to traverse the BNF. One could easily
follow a hyperlink to the "statement_or_null" definition and then follow
the next hyperlink to a "statement" and follow the next hyperlink to a
"blocking_assignment," etc. Global searching through the PDF version of the
standard also works but is quite a bit more cumbersome. Hyperlinked BNF
would be a selling point for the PDF version of the document.
The hyperlinks also prove that every BNF token is defined somewhere in the BNF.
Neither red nor hyperlinks make much sense for the printed version, but
they are real selling points for the PDF version (for which the IEEE
charges more money and it costs them almost nothing since the IEEE just
points you to a web page with a password to download the document). Seems
like the IEEE would like this idea (it encourages sales of the higher
profit-margin version of the document).
I will also update your phone number in my email database. Thanks for the
Regards - Cliff
At 01:10 PM 5/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Cliff and all,
>The Big Cliff-una wrote:
> >> At 11:54 AM 5/9/02 -0400, Jayaram Bhasker wrote:
> >>> I just wish the IEEE had put the red-hyperlinked version of the BNF
> >>> in the PDF release of the Verilog-2001 Standard. I think that would
> >>> have been exceptionally useful to end-users. One of these days, the
> >>> IEEE is going to enter the 21st century (in about 100 years ;-)
> >> Was the PDF submitted to IEEE the red-hyperlinked version? If so, was
> >> it rejected?
> > I am not 100% sure. I know that Yatin Trivedi and Joe Daniels worked
> > with the IEEE on the final format. Whether or not they even showed the
> > IEEE the red version is an interesting question. It may be that they
> > just followed IEEE guidelines requiring black text. Yatin, could you
> > comment?
> >>I can bring this issue up at the next Design Automation Steering
> >>Committee meeting and see if we can influence IEEE.
> > This would be good. I have also copied Paul Menchini to this email
> > message since he is a part of DASC and he may have opinions and/or
> > influence. Thanks for pointing this out.
>I'm just coming into this, so I'm not sure that I have the context, but
>let me give it a shot. I'm guessing that there was a hyperlinked BNF
>in some online (PDF?) version of the doc? Not sure of the significance
>of the color, but I assume it was just a tag to indicate the links?
>I'm further guessing that the question is, more or less, will the IEEE
>allow hyperlinks in the PDF versions of the documents? (I'm not sure
>what the IEEE's policy, if any, is about color in the printed docs. I'm
>sure that, if there was a reason to do so, they'd probably consider it,
>but I'm not sure that indicating (non-existant) hyperlinks in a printed
>document would be considered sufficient reason.
>I that is, indeed, the question, then I suspect that they'd certainly
>consider it. I'm sure that they'd want to consider the effect of such a
>capability on their current pubs methodology--for example, would they
>have to maintain two sources? But, I'm sure that, what with my long
>history with them and with my position on the SA Board of Governors,
>they'd at least strongly consider this approach.
>But, please do give me sufficient background to discuss this with them.
>For example, given a PDF document, what's wrong with just using an
>As to bringing up at the DASC SC, feel free, but do we really need to
>discuss it at this level? I doubt that anyone would, in the abstract,
>be against such an idea....
>P.S. Cliff or whomever has "919-990-9506" as my phone number in their
>address book: that number is at least 5 years out of date....
>919-479-1670 is the one you want....
Cliff Cummings - Sunburst Design, Inc.
14314 SW Allen Blvd., PMB 501, Beaverton, OR 97005
Phone: 503-641-8446 / FAX: 503-641-8486
firstname.lastname@example.org / www.sunburst-design.com
Expert Verilog, Synthesis and Verification Training
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